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Old 26 Jul 2017, 20:19   #1
andrewbw
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Keyboards, concerts, and Alphaville: Played live, or pre-tracked?

Given that a bunch of us will be seeing Alphaville live for the first time at their upcoming US shows, I thought this would be a great time to see if people have any thoughts, one way or another, about how Alphaville has approached structuring how it plays keyboards live.

For as long as electronic music has been a "thing," there's been a debate among its fans where bands should draw the line during live performances between pre-tracking keyboard portions (through the use of sequencers, software like Ableton Live, etc.) or playing elements live with as little assistance as possible.

I don't think there's one correct answer to this: The more complex the arrangement, the less practical it is for a keyboardist to perform it live. There's also the "happy medium" where melody lines are performed live, but other elements are looped and sequenced, inserted either automatically using software components or manually "launched" in-performance. If a keyboardist simplifies a complicated element in order to be able to play it live, the audience might react negatively to not hearing the "real" song. Depeche Mode, for example, played very little of their music live during their late 80s/early 90s heyday—it was almost complete pre-tracked, save for the key melody lines played by former lead keyboardist Alan Wilder (secondary keyboardist Andrew Fletcher has openly admitted he had very little to do on stage, standing behind a keyboard but playing nothing during the entire show). Yet, I don't think it hurt their sound or performance much, thanks to lead singer Dave Gahan's out-sized stage presence.

One thing I've found interesting about Martin Lister as a keyboardist is, based on watching dozens of YouTube videos of him in performance, he seemed to prefer playing a lot of elements live that most keyboardists wouldn't think twice about sequencing. The arpeggio at the beginning of "Victory Of Love" is a good example: This is an element that would be trivial to program and loop. Yet I have watched multiple videos where Martin is clearly playing the notes individually.

When Carsten joined the band, I noticed his live setup started to include two MacBook Pros (generally a sign of sequencing or performance software like Ableton). I've also noticed the keyboards he's using has evolved over time, away from actual synthesizers and toward MIDI keyboards designed to interact with pre-sampled loops and sounds (although, I'm guessing a bit here: I've done a fair amount of frame-by-frame review of a few YouTube videos to try and identify the equipment he's using. Some of it is obvious and ubiquitous among electronic musicians, some of it not so much). Not that there's anything underhanded about Carsten (or anyone) using MIDI keyboards: True analog synthesizers, in particular, are fussy on the road, prone to sound drift and other issues. It may simply be a practical consideration for a band that tends to criss-cross Europe playing shows all year long. It shouldn't matter to me what guitar David plays, or what drums Jacob plays, so it shouldn't matter what type of keyboard setup Carsten is using.

I'll fully admit I'm not an expert in how accomplished musicians like Martin or Carsten approach creating a live setup that balances their needs, the needs of the band, and what the audience expects as a "live" performance. What I know is from a lifetime of listening to and enjoying electronic music and seeing it performed live, and having friends with extensive synthesizer setups who I've bounced some of this off-of to get their opinions. My point here is not in any way to criticize or draw false comparisons between current or former members of the band (I'll repeat what I said earlier: There's no one "right" answer to this debate), but to see what others here think, and whether others have thought about this in context of Alphaville's unique live-show setup that mixes very electronic roots with all the usual musicians of a traditional rock band: Does it matter to you how much of Alphaville's keyboard portions are played live?
Last edited by andrewbw; 26 Jul 2017 at 21:04. Reason: Fixed typos
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 21:36   #2
MarianGoldfan123
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I've wondered this as well. I've been especially curious on what software is used for the AV songs... I can never get a clear enough view of the 2 Macs to be sure.

I recall seeing videos of Martin playing the bassline in the Big in Japan verses, though I might be remembering wrong... I know nowadays it's all pre-sequenced since Carsten keeps his hands off the keyboard entirely during the verses. Understandably so, since obviously his hands would get tired.

I noticed a very stupid trend as of late with the newer songs: He lip syncs parts now. I don't know why... I know this because I've found 2 live videos so far in where he lipsyncs the verses to both Nevermore and Heartbreak City and then uses his actual voice during the chorus.
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 22:25   #3
andrewbw
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Th portions of songs with vocoder effects are lip synced, I think. Watch any YouTube video of Gravitation Breakdown, for example. The verse at the the middle with the robot voice effect is clearly pre-recorded since the sync is often quite noticeably off (there's one, I can't find the link right now easily since I'm on my phone, but the vocals start before Marian has brought the microphone back up to his face. Oops).
Last edited by andrewbw; 26 Jul 2017 at 22:28.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 07:28   #4
MarianGoldfan123
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Here's the Heartbreak City lip sync video. It's, without a doubt, him just lip syncing to the verses.

https://youtu.be/5onRL6uaiho?t=20m15s

And then here's Nevermore.

https://youtu.be/D9ILFDQrrxg?t=56s
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 17:26   #5
andrewbw
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Hmm, good finds. Yeah, the Heartbreak City one is pretty obvious. He would've gotten away with it if he hadn't been so breathless when he launched into the refrain. The difference in sound between the two is jarring. Singing falsetto is difficult to sound even and consistent, especially when you're prone to running out of breath like Marian seems to. So I suppose lip syncing is probably the best choice (or to not have used falsetto in the first place, but that ship has sailed, so...)

The second one is harder to tell. I think you're right, but I think that's more because of what I said earlier: There's a vocal effect applied to those parts of Nevermore (a slight reverb, I think) which, for whatever reason, they seem unwilling to apply live even though it's certainly possible. There's nothing about vocoder effects that negates their use during live performance, while there's all sorts of syncing complexity to phasing lip syncing in and out. But I trust Alphaville makes whatever decision is right for them.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 21:46   #6
MarianGoldfan123
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I'm surprised Marian did use falsetto for the song since obviously he cornered himself a bit by doing that for when they play it live. He should've made the final version of the song like the vinyl mix, which doesn't have falsetto in the verses, but more or less in the chorus. I had noticed something about the lip synced video I linked: The way he sings the verses in the vocal recording differs a bit from the final version. My guess is that was the original studio take, from before any editing / comping was done to it.

I guess they have their reasons as to why he can't do the verses legitimately in Nevermore. Nevermore would be a rather easy one for him to sing (one would think, anyways) since it doesn't go too high when it comes to the vocal range.

This whole "lip syncing" talk reminds me of those special recordings which the band uses when "performing live" on TV stations. They use special mixes of Dance With Me / Big in Japan / Forever Young (usually in this order, too) which musically sound like the live versions which they play now, but have the 80's vocal tracks layered over them. i do find it very interesting that the Forever Young recording has subtle differences when compared to the album version. Most evidently when he says "I don't want to perish like a fading horse". He says "horse" more harshly. He also says "Let's dance in style / let's dance for a while / Heaven can wait we're only watching the skies" a bit different. My guess is that vocal track is, again, the original take which he had done in the studio and they had later on re-recorded those portions for the album cut and they never bothered to update the vocal track on that "special mix".
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 22:08   #7
humanracer
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Answer from Marian:
Dear Karen,
my vocal performances are always completely live. Nevertheless, in the verses of "Heartbreak City" and "Nevermore" in each case I doubletrack a recorded vocal which implies sound effects difficult to reproduce live. Depending on the various acoustic settings during concerts it may happen that sometimes the recorded vocal is louder than the live one. That is not intended. I will talk to Christoph, our "front of house" sound engineer to get rid of that problem.
Thanx for telling!
Marian
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 22:26   #8
MarianGoldfan123
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Awesome. At least we have clarification on this now.
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 23:28   #9
andrewbw
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Wow! That's very kind of Marian to chime in directly. And I certainly hope he (and the rest of the band) take no offense at this thread. As I tried to make clear in my opening post, I'm interested in this subject overall (how electronic bands approach the complex problem of translating their sound for live performance) and how Alphaville in particular solves this, both to make their jobs easier, and to put on a good show for their fans. How Marian has approached his responsibilities as a vocalist over the course of a 40+ year career (we should all be so lucky!) is a fascinating tangent.

Regardless of the answers, I couldn't be more excited to see them live in just a couple short weeks.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 00:33   #10
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Marian doesn't mind at all being asked, whuch was why I asked him. Afrer all, might as well get it from the horse's mouth when you have that possibility.


Before you judge me, make sure you're perfect.
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